Episode 126
Neurodivergence and home education: when school is the safeguarding issue
In this episode, we talk to Emily who is a home educating mum of three with autism and adhd, whose children are all also neurodivergent. What emerges is a safeguarding issue - but no, not the usual rhetoric around home education and registers. Here school was the safeguarding issue for Emily's child and home education is the place of care and freedom.
With Emily Fae - Emily is a home educating mum of 3. As a late diagnosed neurodivergent woman parenting and educating her three neurodivergent daughters, she is passionate about sharing her experiences and supporting other mums in similar situations, helping empower them in making the right choices for both them and their children. - @Calmspace_calmmind on Instagram
Transcript
Welcome to Home Education Matters, the weekly podcast supporting you on your home education journey.
Speaker A:Hello and welcome to another episode of Home Education Matters.
Speaker A:And today I'm joined by Emily Fay, who is a neurodivergent home educating mum of three, which I feel like should be on a badge or something or a T shirt.
Speaker A:And that's nice, isn't it?
Speaker A:Welcome to the podcast, Emily.
Speaker A:Thank you so much for joining me.
Speaker A:Do tell our listeners a little bit just about your home education journey.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:So I think I often wonder when I sort of made the actual decision that we weren't going down the school route.
Speaker B:And I don't know that I can specifically say that, but I definitely started questioning what I was going to do.
Speaker B:I mean, I think that a lot of people, you know, you have a baby and, and you have these kind of ideas of what it's going to be like and the journey that you're gonna take with that and, and the, the milestones that you're gonna hit and you know, the first birthday and the first day of nursery and the, and then, you know, the first day of school, that's a huge thing.
Speaker B:And everyone talks about it, what school they're gonna go to and oh, you know, or they'll be starting school soon.
Speaker B:My journey into motherhood was slightly different because my daughter was diagnosed with leukemia at nine months old.
Speaker B:It was a very rare form of leukemia and she had a genetic condition linked to that.
Speaker B:So her chance of survival was like less than 3%.
Speaker B:And we were told, yeah, to prepare ourselves, she had to have a stem cell transplant.
Speaker B:It was her only chance of overcoming things.
Speaker B:She had that just before her first birthday and she's 11 now and she's doing amazing.
Speaker B:She's a little bit of a miracle.
Speaker B:They, they didn't expect her to not only survive but also to do as well as she is doing.
Speaker B:She has a lot of hurdles to overcome in the future, but she's doing amazing.
Speaker B:So I didn't have some of the firsts anyway as a mother because we were in a hospital from nine months until nearly 18 months.
Speaker B:And then after that, you know, I had a, had a child where I had to be careful what she did, how she interacted.
Speaker B:She had delays in her physical development and things.
Speaker B:And she was also a summer born baby.
Speaker B:So my husband and I, we discussed home ed and we felt that that was the way that we were going to go.
Speaker B:We were exploring that.
Speaker B:But in the first instance to talk to, you know, because it's convincing other people around you and it's the pressure from people around you can be really hard.
Speaker B:We said, we're delaying.
Speaker B:She was a summer born baby, we could do that anyway.
Speaker B:You know, when she got to that CSA age and you kind of feel that pressure, you should be applying for schools and stuff, we were like, it's fine because we're just, we're still doing our thing.
Speaker B:And it gave us a chance to kind of really get into the swing of, of home ed.
Speaker B:And by then I had three.
Speaker B:Three under five.
Speaker B:I don't recommend it.
Speaker B:So I was balancing all of that as well.
Speaker B:And I was like, do you know what?
Speaker B:Throwing a school run into this would be easier just to have them all at home than having to, to kind of do that.
Speaker B:So we, we started, you know, joining groups and getting to know other people and things and, and more and more I started thinking, but this is working for us, right?
Speaker B:And suddenly going into school and things.
Speaker B:And I also had a bit of a trust issue with school.
Speaker B:Imogen had a lot of additional needs and I did speak to some schools.
Speaker B:I did look into it.
Speaker B:I didn't want to make the decision solely from looking back at my own experiences of school and thinking and also wanting to keep my daughter close to me because obviously I'd nearly lost her and the thought of suddenly giving her away to strangers scared the life out of me.
Speaker B:And I didn't want to make the decision purely from a kind of fear point of view.
Speaker B:So I wanted to make it from an empowered point of view.
Speaker B:So I did.
Speaker B:I spoke to schools and I couldn't get any school to give me any reassurance that my daughter's needs would be met.
Speaker B:And I thought, well, hold on, there's no other situation that I would put my child in if I wasn't sure their needs were going to be met.
Speaker B:Is that, you know, as a parent you want to protect your child, right?
Speaker B:And then we're told to just go and put them into, into a school environment, into the environment of other people.
Speaker B:And without that reassurance that they're going to receive the same level of care that you are giving them at home.
Speaker B:And that for me was the tipping point.
Speaker B:I was like, without that reassurance, without that wanting to understand my unique child's needs and being able to help them with that, it was a no brainer for me.
Speaker B:I was like, no, she stays with me.
Speaker B:I can, I can meet these needs.
Speaker B:And there was a fear, you know, can I do it?
Speaker B:Am I qualified enough?
Speaker B:You know, and my father likes to tell me regularly that you know.
Speaker B:Yes, but when she start, you know, once she's secondary school age, you won't be able, you won't, you know, you know, you don't have the skills to, to teach her at that level and blah, blah, blah.
Speaker B:And you know, you, you do, there's a lot of outside pressure.
Speaker B:Can you give that level of education to your child?
Speaker B:And my counter argument to that is, can you give my child the level of care that they need to support them in that?
Speaker B:Because if you can't provide them with the perfect environment for them to absorb whatever they need to absorb, if you can't do that, you can be the best teacher in the world.
Speaker B:My child is not going to learn.
Speaker B:They're not going to make the progress that they have the ability to make because the environment around them isn't, isn't correct.
Speaker B:I know because I was that child.
Speaker B:I was that child in that environment.
Speaker B:I was the child that was told, you have the ability to do so much more.
Speaker B:Why aren't you trying harder?
Speaker B:You, you're an a star pupil but you're getting B's and C's.
Speaker B:Why?
Speaker B:Why?
Speaker B:Why?
Speaker B:Because I'm in an environment that isn't allowing me to excel and I felt that my daughters were going to be the same.
Speaker B:And as you said, I'm a neurodivergent mother.
Speaker B:I am diagnosed autistic, but I wasn't diagnosed until I was in my 30s and I'm undiagnosed ADHD as well.
Speaker B:And my daughters are also neurodivergent.
Speaker B:Having gone through my life feeling misunderstood, feeling like I was less than because I wasn't hitting the targets that were expected of me, that I wasn't doing what I was supposed to be doing.
Speaker B:And then the impact that had on my mental and physical well being for me, I wasn't prepared to take that risk with my daughters of impacting their mental and physical health.
Speaker B:For what?
Speaker B:For them to, to be like me and come out with, you know, be the average student.
Speaker B:You know, I was never the bottom of anything, but I was just, I sat in the middle and I, I, I wasn't the star student of anything.
Speaker B:I was frequently told that I needed to be trying harder, trying better, I could do.
Speaker B:And, and I carried that through and, and I'm now as an adult, I'm doing that, undoing those beliefs that I wasn't good enough, that I wasn't, I was lazy, that I wasn't trying hard enough.
Speaker B:That, and also that I was pedantic and precocious because I often questioned the teachers because my autistic brain was like, hold on there.
Speaker B:And I realize now it was just me, you know, trying to understand.
Speaker B:But to them, I was being difficult.
Speaker B:I was a difficult child to have in their classroom because I wasn't just toeing the line and doing what they wanted me to do, and I didn't want that for my daughters.
Speaker B:And as scary as going against the grain and home educating and that feeling of pressure that, you know, your children's academic success is on your shoulders, it's so freeing.
Speaker B:I get to allow my children to follow their passions.
Speaker B:I get to allow them to learn at their own speed.
Speaker B:And one of the.
Speaker B:One of the fascinating things I found is that I often do a lot, a lot with my girls and feel like there's.
Speaker B:There's no progress being made.
Speaker B:And then all of a sudden, like, my middle daughter, she went from not reading and it was like such.
Speaker B:A.
Speaker B:Felt like such a struggle because she wanted to.
Speaker B:To learn, but she was just so struggling for so long and then all of a sudden she was reading and.
Speaker B:I'm really sorry about the noise in the background.
Speaker A:It's cute.
Speaker A:What's she doing?
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:I've got two kittens and they're going a bit crazy.
Speaker A:The kittens?
Speaker A:I thought it was the children.
Speaker A:It's the kittens.
Speaker B:It's very cute.
Speaker B:I'm ever so sorry about that.
Speaker A:I like kitten background.
Speaker A:Kitten.
Speaker A:Kitten sound.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:They're actually destroying one of my daughter's creations.
Speaker A:Are they?
Speaker A:Do you want to stop them?
Speaker B:Well, I did tell her not to leave it on the floor.
Speaker B:So this is a life lesson.
Speaker A:It's interesting, you're.
Speaker A:When you were talking there, it really reminded me of that.
Speaker A:Of that thing you hear bandied around every now and then about safeguarding and about how home education is a safeguarding issue.
Speaker A:I'm doing little inverted commas as I say that, and how sometimes parliamentary discussions kind of equate the two across.
Speaker A:And I was thinking as you were talking that actually for you, school was a safeguarding issue, wasn't it?
Speaker A:Both physically, emotionally.
Speaker A:It was.
Speaker A:It was a safeguarding thing, wasn't it, for you?
Speaker B:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker B:It really was.
Speaker B:And as a child, it was a safeguarding issue for me.
Speaker B:I was.
Speaker B:I was that overlooked child.
Speaker B:You know, I actually.
Speaker B:I actually got locked in the school once.
Speaker B:My friend and I got forgotten.
Speaker B:We were.
Speaker B:Well, her mum was late picking us up.
Speaker B:We'd been.
Speaker B:We'd done a netball match after school and we'd gone up to the library and we were waiting up there and all the teachers forgot about us and they went home and we went to go out of the school and we couldn't get out and we were locked in.
Speaker B:So, yeah, school is a safeguarding issue for me.
Speaker B:And without reassurance that, you know, I appreciate they do safeguarding training, I appreciate that teachers are trained, but they also have 30 plus children that they are looking after.
Speaker B:And I, I love the fact that my children get to interact with a really wide range of people.
Speaker B:Adults, older children, younger children, you know, loads of different people in, in various settings, but they also have me.
Speaker B:So my children, you know, they do, they get into situations where they are, you know, falling out or, you know, having little disagreements or maybe someone says something to them or they feel hurt and I'm there and I get to help them navigate through that in the moment.
Speaker B:And for me, that is a huge plus because one of the biggest things that people say is what about socializing?
Speaker B:This, this is another huge thing that gets thrown around when you say you're home educating about how do they socialize?
Speaker B:Which I, which makes me laugh because don't we all remember being at school and being told it's not social time, this is the time to learn and you know, stop talking in the back.
Speaker B:You're not supposed to be, you know, socializing now.
Speaker B:But that, but that biggest aspect, when you say you're home educating, another thing they say is that, you know, children, so sorry, children aren't.
Speaker A:I'm only imagining the destruction going on in the background.
Speaker B:Oh God.
Speaker B:They always do this when I try and do anything.
Speaker B:They're absolute menaces.
Speaker B:And, but that's the other element that you, you get to support when you're home educating is them learning to socialize in a really positive way and them learning to navigate the intricacies of socialization by having that security of you there.
Speaker B:And, and you know, we all know that thing of.
Speaker B:Unless you deal with things in the moment with children, it's, you know, it's gone.
Speaker B:It hasn't gone, it's there in them, but they've moved on.
Speaker B:So it's.
Speaker B:If something happens in school, by the time they come home, they may not tell you about it, but they're still carrying it.
Speaker B:And for me, being able to have those interactions in it and deal with everything, not everything in the moment, you know, I'm not with my children 24, 7 to get a break, but on a more frequent basis, it, it fills me with confidence as a mother that my children are, you know, have that support and that safety blanket.
Speaker B:But also for them, they're, they're much more confident going into situations.
Speaker B:You know, I, my children are.
Speaker B:People always say, oh, they're, they're very quiet, they're very shy.
Speaker B:And they are, their neurodivergence is very similar to my own where I was labeled as shy as a child because I, I will always stand back in a situation.
Speaker B:You know, I'm not going to shout over anybody.
Speaker B:I'm not going to, you know, I'm a quieter version.
Speaker B:I'm not an extrovert, I'm an introvert.
Speaker B:And so that's playing out in my children as well.
Speaker B:And I get a lot of people say, oh, your children are really placid.
Speaker B:They're really.
Speaker B:And I think until they're in the right environment and then they're really not and they're not placid.
Speaker B:I find that very.
Speaker B:A quite offensive term because I think that feels like that they're kind of just trying to fit in and they're not.
Speaker B:Because that what I'm being able to teach them that I didn't have the opportunity to learn is boundaries.
Speaker B:So although my children may come across as quiet, they are very boundaries and they are not afraid to say no or no thank you, or I don't like that, or please don't speak to me like that.
Speaker B:And that's something that I felt was really, really important to be able to teach my.
Speaker B:And particularly because they're introverted and particularly because they've got to learn to navigate in a world where there are a lot of extroverts and, and a lot of people who will shout over them or who may try to do things.
Speaker B:You know, one of my daughters in particular doesn't like touch.
Speaker B:So I wanted to teach her from a young age that it was okay, particularly around adults, to say no.
Speaker B:I, I, that makes me feel uncomfortable.
Speaker B:And her saying that makes adults feel very uncomfortable.
Speaker B:But it's really important, it's really important for them to learn boundaries with children and for her to learn that.
Speaker B:So that, that was another.
Speaker B:So, yeah, the safeguarding aspect, that kind of keeping the teaching them the skills to safeguard themselves.
Speaker B:I felt that I could do that in a much more effective way than I felt that the school would, would be able to do.
Speaker B:Not because they're not skilled.
Speaker B:I'm not saying that they don't have amazingly skilled people working in those environments and that some of those teachers would be really helpful and supportive.
Speaker B:I don't think they have the capacity to do that.
Speaker A:It's interesting you were saying about that, because I think that school inherently erodes people's boundaries.
Speaker A:And it's a controversial statement, but I really stand by it.
Speaker A:I did a podcast with Naomi Fisher about anxiety and about supporting your anxious child, and she said something very similar.
Speaker A:She said the school system is set up to create anxiety because by anxiety you get motivation, you get control.
Speaker A:And I think as well, school is inherently designed to erode boundaries.
Speaker A:My daughter, who is trying out school this week, I gave her a little pep talk and I said, I, you know, try to do what the teachers ask you to do, unless of course, you feel that it makes you feel uncomfortable or it's not something that you want to do or it goes against your values or any of that.
Speaker A:And she looked at me as if to say, well, obviously I'm not going to do that then.
Speaker A:And I thought, She's 17 now.
Speaker A:She knows that because we've had, you know, almost two decades of homeschooling, but in actual fact, how many children go into school, particularly neurodivergent children who then.
Speaker A:Who then almost certainly suck up whatever happens?
Speaker A:Because the, the culture in a school is to do what you're told.
Speaker A:And if you don't, it's really problematic, really.
Speaker A:Problem, you get like your name on the board, public shaming, you know, it's terrible.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And as I would imagine that as a neurodivergent parent who had been through that experience yourself, and then to imagine viscerally kind of imagine your neurodivergent children in that kind of experience where boundaries aren't encouraged, it would be, it, it would be really like a conflict for you.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:That and I.
Speaker B:Something that I'm having to heal and unlearn now as an adult is the fear of being wrong.
Speaker B:I absolutely terrified of breaking rules.
Speaker B:I'm terrified of getting in trouble.
Speaker B:I'm terrified of being told I'm wrong.
Speaker B:And it keeps me from.
Speaker B:I'm really sorry.
Speaker B:He's just.
Speaker A:Is it the kittens?
Speaker A:I kind of want to see what they've done.
Speaker B:I've got a hold of my daughter's made a bird feeder at, at the farm the other day.
Speaker B:And you've just got hold of that and was trying to get all the seed and everything everywhere.
Speaker A:Oh my God.
Speaker B:I just wanted to that before it was too much courage.
Speaker A:It's very sensible.
Speaker B:I did never work with children or animals.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So, yes, this fear of being.
Speaker B:Being wrong and getting in trouble because you are, you know, my neurodivergent brain and being autistic you do have this black and white thinking.
Speaker B:So if I'm told I can't do something, I can't do it and I won't do it.
Speaker B:The issue therefore in school is that you become, you lose a part of yourself because there are so many rules and you're so, and a lot of them contradict each other as well.
Speaker B:And, and it, and it can change.
Speaker B:So as you go up in school, the rules start to change and then, and the expectations change.
Speaker B:But when you've got an autistic brain, it's like, hold on a minute, how does this work?
Speaker B:A minute ago I wasn't allowed to do that or I was allowed to do that and now I'm not.
Speaker B:And you spend your whole time just in this, in this sort of confusion and this feeling of always being wrong and getting it wrong because the boundaries are changing all the time.
Speaker B:The goalposts are changing, the expectations are changing.
Speaker B:And it's a lot, it's a lot on a child who just wants to follow the rules.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And do it right.
Speaker B:Do it right.
Speaker B:And I think that pressure is, is huge and, and, and is so misunderstood within the education field.
Speaker B:This understanding that the level of wanting things to be right and the same and needing that, needing that, needing things to be the same, needing the.
Speaker B:You know why a lot of children seemingly do well in school as, as new, neurodivergent or autistic is because.
Speaker B:And, and at first or their parents feel that they don't do as well at home.
Speaker B:Is that routine, the routine element of school?
Speaker B:You know, I, I thrived in the.
Speaker B:Putting a uniform on every day.
Speaker B:I thrived on.
Speaker B:I had to be at certain places at certain times and things were on certain that that element of it is great, but it's not enough.
Speaker B:It's not enough that.
Speaker B:And that, and that's not the education part of it.
Speaker B:You can create a routine at home.
Speaker B:You know, I've created that with my daughters.
Speaker B:My daughters we used to have overwhelm every morning I could.
Speaker B:We'd have a meltdown every morning about getting dressed.
Speaker B:So in the evening they set their clothes out for the next day.
Speaker B:So they just get up and they put their clothes on.
Speaker B:They have that routine and then they can just do whatever.
Speaker B:You know, they haven't.
Speaker B:Even if we're not going out anywhere, they still do that.
Speaker B:They have that familiarity of that routine.
Speaker B:There's no pressure, there's no expectation on them.
Speaker B:They know that that's what's happening.
Speaker B:We have a loose timetable that we follow so that they have an expectation, they know what's coming.
Speaker B:You can create that whilst also allowing within that timetable that you can throw out the window if someone's having a bad day or you know you're feeling overwhelmed or there's too much going on.
Speaker B:You just, you can let go of that timetable.
Speaker B:You can do whatever is needed on that day.
Speaker B:But what we find helpful is that semi structure to fall back on, that kind of, it's that familiarity, it's what school does offer that is helpful, is that kind of something to follow, something to kind of give some sort of structure to your day, to your week.
Speaker B:And I think for us as a neurodivergent family, that works really, really well.
Speaker B:For me as a parent, I know what my expect, the expectations are on me.
Speaker B:I don't have to every day be thinking, oh God, what am I going to do today?
Speaker B:But for my daughters as well, they know, they know what the expectations are and they also know that it's okay for them to turn around and say, I don't want to do that today, I can't do it.
Speaker B:And that, and that's okay.
Speaker B:And we, we, we talk about it and we go, okay, is there anything that we can put in place so you can do that, so you feel able to, or we just don't do it and that's okay.
Speaker B:And there isn't a repercussion from that.
Speaker B:There's a, that's what home, home education is brilliant for, is that your children get to, they get to learn the natural consequences of things so they start to understand, oh, if I, if I frequently don't do this class or I frequently don't go to that group, oh, actually the natural consequence might be that then when I do go, friendship groups have changed or when I do go, I feel behind or I'm not meeting these goals that I want to meet.
Speaker B:So they get to learn natural consequences but not repercussions.
Speaker B:They're not punished for it, but they get to learn that, oh, actually if I put the effort in, if I push myself a little bit, then I can actually achieve more.
Speaker B:And learning that for themselves, I mean that's, that's a skill again that I've had to learn that I'm learning to do things for myself and that it, that, you know, I, I'm not going to get in trouble if I don't do it.
Speaker B:But actually I want to do it because the natural consequences, if I don't do it, then I don't achieve or I don't, you Know, get fitter or I don't.
Speaker B:Whatever the goal is.
Speaker B:And I, I think that's what's lacking in school is that they don't get the opportunity to learn natural consequences.
Speaker B:They're just punished.
Speaker B:And, and therefore, for them, it's just like, well, that's just not fair then.
Speaker B:That's just, you know, they just learn life is.
Speaker B:Isn't fair.
Speaker B:And I, yeah, what I hear is.
Speaker A:I always say that home education really is about freedom and flexibility.
Speaker A:For me, that's very much what it's been, and similar to you, that took place for me within a structured setting.
Speaker A:So I've had, I've had the real honor of interviewing some amazing unschoolers who do it brilliantly, like, brilliantly.
Speaker A:And every time I listen to them, I think, oh, this is really cool.
Speaker A:I really want to do this.
Speaker A:This is like, amazing.
Speaker A:And then I'd have to rein myself back in and go, yeah, no, no, that's not gonna work for you.
Speaker A:Because for me, structureless in that way freaks me out.
Speaker A:Completely freaks me out.
Speaker A:And my son, I know he's.
Speaker A:He is also one of these people that he asks me at the start of the week, okay, what's happening?
Speaker A:When.
Speaker A:And I remember there was a time when he was about 7, and he said, oh, you know, what have we got on today?
Speaker A:And I was like, I don't know, dude, let's just see.
Speaker A:And he looked at me as if to say, are you actually joking me right now?
Speaker A:And I thought, okay, this is not the vibe that he's looking for here.
Speaker A:So do you feel that, that you have this freedom of flexibility within the boundaries and the structure that you put in place?
Speaker A:How do you feel that that settles within the home educating community?
Speaker A:Do you feel that you are doing, like, one thing or another?
Speaker A:Do you feel that you're just doing your thing?
Speaker A:Like, how does that work for you?
Speaker B:You know, I, I find myself always being like, you know, I, I want to be this unschooling parent and I want to just let them do whatever.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker B:And actually with the neurodivergence, for my daughters, that doesn't work.
Speaker B:They need a semi structure.
Speaker B:And I found that when I was just, let's breeze through this for us as a family, that didn't work.
Speaker B:But where I have to get the balance is the minute that I step into structure, you start getting into like, oh, we've got to be doing this and we've got to be doing that.
Speaker B:So I've managed to, I like to call it semi structure in this kind of a flexible routine, because the routine element of it, I think for our brains really helps.
Speaker B:And one of my daughters in particular, she, she needs to know what's happening.
Speaker B:She needs what's happening the next day in the week.
Speaker B:She needs to have that.
Speaker B:You know, we have set days where she washes her hair, otherwise there's no way you're getting her anywhere near a bathroom.
Speaker B:But if she know, she knows on that day is happening, she can handle it.
Speaker B:So I have to do that with her learning as well.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:And, and it's quite interesting in the home ed community because there's kind of this sort of purist kind of stuff that goes on, you know, that's kind of like, oh, yeah, but if you're, if you're not unschooling and letting your child just do whatever, then you're, you're not home edding, right?
Speaker B:And I think there's no right or wrong way.
Speaker B:There's the way for your child and your family and what works best for you.
Speaker B:And I think there's.
Speaker B:You get sucked into both sides of it.
Speaker B:You get sucked into the.
Speaker B:Oh, you've got to be doing GCSEs and you've got to be doing so much maths in English each week.
Speaker B:And if you're having to produce reports for the la, you also have that pressure of, you know, proving that you're, you're giving enough to each of those core subjects.
Speaker B:But then you also have this pressure from a lot of other people within the community where it's like, no, you need to be letting your children run free and you need to be just integrating learning into every day, which is obviously brilliant and is what everyone is doing anyway without even trying.
Speaker B:But I, I've done both.
Speaker B:And at each ends of the spectrum, Hannah, they both were really stressful for me.
Speaker B:And so I've kind of found this middle ground and I think there, when people are coming in new to home ed as well, there's this kind of pressure to go one.
Speaker A:Choose a camp.
Speaker B:Yeah, choose a camp.
Speaker B:Are you unschooling or are you being really militant?
Speaker B:And you've got, you know, these really crazy timetables.
Speaker B:And so like you were saying at 11, 12.
Speaker B:So my 11 year old suddenly was like, I want to do all these things.
Speaker B:And so she's booked on all these online classes, she's got this crazy timetable.
Speaker B:And I'm like, okay, you do you.
Speaker B:Let's see how it goes.
Speaker B:It's like, and, and she, she loves it and she hasn't done all of the classes yet, but she's really excited about it.
Speaker B:She wants to do all these things.
Speaker B:And I'm like, okay, well, let's see how it goes.
Speaker B:Let's see how you can manage, you know, all these different things.
Speaker B:And I think that's the beauty of home ed is you get to give them those opportunities.
Speaker B:Like you're saying with your daughter, giving her the opportunity to go and experience school and experience that.
Speaker B:You get to let them find their way and find what works for them.
Speaker B:And then you've got two children having three.
Speaker B:They're so different.
Speaker B:And that's what's fascinated me the most, because I have to.
Speaker B:They have to have completely different timetables, completely different styles of learning passions.
Speaker B:My middle daughter is very much like, unless it's about animals, she's not interested.
Speaker B:So I have to make every, every bit of learning has to be related to an animal or that.
Speaker B:But there's a bit.
Speaker B:That's great, that's fine.
Speaker B:I can do that.
Speaker B:You know, there, there's millions of ways she, you know, she manages to.
Speaker B:I found some amazing online classes.
Speaker B:She's found this, this tutor that who does these, these online classes.
Speaker B:And she's just taken to her and she does drawing classes with her and science classes and zoology and stuff, and they're all based around animals.
Speaker B:But she's learning different skills with each of them.
Speaker B:And she, she's into it.
Speaker B:When we first, when I first started trying to get her to do anything, she wasn't interested in.
Speaker B:If she thinks that it's learning or we're sitting down to do a workbook or something, nah, she's not interested.
Speaker B:But these, she gets so excited.
Speaker B:She's, you know, writing her own books about these animals and, and this was the child who wouldn't pick up a pencil or do anything.
Speaker B:And it's so beautiful to be able to offer those opportunities for your children.
Speaker B:And I'm so grateful for all the people out there who are also offering things so I don't have to sit and do it all myself.
Speaker B:But my eldest, she's really.
Speaker B:She loves reading all the classics.
Speaker B:She's very like.
Speaker B:She's, she's my mother and she loves really structured classes and really what I would call sort of traditional learning styles.
Speaker B:And potentially in a school environment, she would quite like the class teaching element of it.
Speaker B:But the rest of it would be wait.
Speaker B:She's so sensitive and she'd just be completely.
Speaker B:And she'd be so distracted.
Speaker B:She gets distracted so easily.
Speaker B:She wouldn't learn as much as she, she does in her lessons but she, she needs those type of lessons.
Speaker B:Completely different to my middle daughter and then my youngest, the whirlwind, she's just like, that's a whole other ball game.
Speaker B:And we're still fight, you know, she's just coming up to seven.
Speaker B:We're still finding our feet, you know, in other countries they don't even start school until then, so we haven't, you know, she's just dipping her toe in the water, she tries out little bits here and there and she's trying out some of her sisters things and stuff and we're still, I'm still learning her style.
Speaker B:I'm still sort of discovering what it is that is going to click into place for her.
Speaker B:That's going to be, you know, sort of accelerate her learning.
Speaker B:It's made me realize it's like, how can you make a national curriculum?
Speaker B:And how can you make, you know, I'm quite, my mum, you know, taught teachers to be teachers.
Speaker B:So I, I have sort of an insight, you know, I know how that's taught and it's so simplistic, it's for one style of learning.
Speaker B:How can you, when everyone's so different, have a school where you go in and they're expected to all do the same thing?
Speaker B:And it's.
Speaker B:My autistic brain goes, pardon?
Speaker B:That doesn't compute for me.
Speaker B:And it fascinates me that it's not wildly understood and I hear it so much from people like, I could never do it, I don't know how you do it.
Speaker B:And my brain goes, I don't know how you do the school run.
Speaker A:Thank you.
Speaker B:To you know, trying to get them to do homework.
Speaker B:I don't know how you do the meltdowns after school, I don't know how you do the managing all of the things that they have to take to school and you know, the parent teacher evenings and the off the trips and all of those things because I, I don't have to do any of that.
Speaker B:And yeah, there are days when home educating is hard.
Speaker B:There are days when I think, well, wouldn't it be nice just to send them off somewhere else for the day?
Speaker A:Do you ever get a clash of brains, if you know what I mean, in your household.
Speaker A:You're laughing as if it's like, oh.
Speaker B:Yeah, oh yes, yes.
Speaker B:And I have, I'm very lucky to, to have a best friend who is also autistic and ADHD like myself and will often text and she also home educates and we'll often text and Be like, oh, my autistic brain is switched on today.
Speaker B:Or I'm really ADHD today.
Speaker B:And, and I do say sometimes my, my autistic brain is there and we are on point.
Speaker B:Everything is to the letter, and we're, we're doing this, this, this, this.
Speaker B:And then other times, my ADHD brain and I am jumping from one thing to another, or I start 10 things and we don't complete any of them.
Speaker B:And so, and sometimes that's okay because my daughters are in sync with that part of my brain being in gear.
Speaker B:So, like when my autistic brain is on fire and, and they're in, in that kind of space as well, we're like the dream team and we're, you know, completing stuff left, right and center is, Is brilliant.
Speaker B:If we're all firing from an ADHD perspective, there's fireworks and it can be absolute carnage.
Speaker B:And again, you know, when it can be really hard.
Speaker B:Because my, My eldest is her ADHD brain is on pretty much all the time and she starts 10 projects at once.
Speaker B:I spend a lot of my time managing her.
Speaker B:And I have to say, she, she.
Speaker B:I don't know how she does it, but she reads like 10 books at once and she has them all started and she knows exactly what's going on in all these books.
Speaker B:This blows my mind because I can, I, I like to read a book at a time.
Speaker B:I like to finish it and then start another one.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:But I also am trying to teach her how to manage that because she does it with.
Speaker B:She, she, she crochets and she knits as well.
Speaker B:But she'll start hundreds of projects.
Speaker B:And I've had to be quite strict with her.
Speaker B:And I've, I've got a. I created her a little box and I'm like, you have to finish the projects in this box before you start another one, because otherwise we just have these unfinished projects everywhere.
Speaker B:So that can be really hard because it's, it's probably hard for her that my autistic brain explodes because she's got 20 million things on the go and she.
Speaker B:Love, you know, she explodes that I can only do one thing at a time, a lot of the time.
Speaker B:So, yes, it does.
Speaker B:It does clash.
Speaker B:And those are the days when we throw the timetable out, because those are the days it tends to clash when we're dysregulated.
Speaker B:So my, My biggest thing is, is teaching my children about dysregulation.
Speaker B:And I think this is another thing that schools are only, I mean, just in general, society is only just Starting to understand more and more about dysregulation, about how just regulating a child can stop violent outbursts, can stop, you know, meltdowns, can aid concentration.
Speaker B:And so what we tend to find as a family that those times when there are clashes, when there's.
Speaker B:What's actually going on, is dysregulation.
Speaker B:So we like to talk about it as a family in terms of dysregulation, because what I found is that that's quite a neutral term that allows us to offer support to each other rather than she's being really annoying or she's telling me what to do or whatever.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:Can we look at what's going on for that person, that maybe they're being really irritating today or they're snappy or whatever?
Speaker B:And that's when we would have that freedom and flexibility to go, okay, so what do we need?
Speaker B:Do we need to throw everything out the window?
Speaker B:Do we need to find something that's going to regulate us?
Speaker B:Do we need to get outside?
Speaker B:Do we need to go to the farm for my daughter so she can go and go and see the horses, which really regulates her?
Speaker B:Do we need to go and, you know, hug a tree?
Speaker B:Do we need to go to the sea and breathe the sea air in?
Speaker B:Do we need to.
Speaker B:What do we need to do?
Speaker B:Do we need to just switch a computer on and, you know, watch something or.
Speaker B:Or do a game or something that's going to just bring that.
Speaker B:Bring our minds back in and, and focus and.
Speaker B:And so, yeah, it all comes back to that, that freedom and flexibility to be able to do that to.
Speaker B:You know, when you've got.
Speaker B:When a teacher's got a classroom of, of 30 kids, they might be able to identify that this child is dysregulated and they need something, but they can't give it to them.
Speaker B:They can't provide that.
Speaker B:And so I think, gosh, for those teachers who are really switched on and really get it, that must be so frustrating because no one wants to see a child struggling in that way when they know what they need and to not be able to give that to them.
Speaker B:That's what I love about home educating.
Speaker B:I can.
Speaker B:I. I mean, I can't all the time.
Speaker B:There are moments when I can't, obviously, you know, when you've got three kids, sometimes I have to say, well, or I just.
Speaker B:That capacity.
Speaker B:Sometimes I'm like, I'm done.
Speaker B:I. I can't support you right now.
Speaker B:But because I can do it, the majority of the time, it's okay.
Speaker B:And I Think it's really important that for me as a mother, for them to learn that, for them to see me being dysregulated and me sometimes saying, time out.
Speaker B:Yeah, you've got to leave me alone for a second.
Speaker B:I don't have capacity for this right now.
Speaker B:I put my boundaries in and that's really important for them to see me do that because I had parents that didn't do that or that did it too much.
Speaker B:And I think because they were just, you know, my mum worked long hours and then she'd come home and be like, I'm done.
Speaker B:Don't speak to me.
Speaker B:And I'd be like, I've been on my own all this time.
Speaker B:And, you know, so it can.
Speaker B:You know, it is difficult, but I think having that freedom and flexibility to be able to listen to everyone's needs, not always be able to, you know, we're not a perfect family.
Speaker B:We.
Speaker B:I. I definitely need.
Speaker B:Do not meet my children's needs every minute of the day, but I sure as hell get the opportunity to do it the majority of the time.
Speaker B:And that's for me.
Speaker B:I wouldn't change that for the world, for all the hard moments of home education, because there are.
Speaker B:I wouldn't change it for the world just for that.
Speaker A:I think what you say there about emotional regulation is so key.
Speaker A:My daughter, who, as I say, is trying out school, she came back from school last weekend, she had computer studies.
Speaker A:And I said, what did you do in computer studies?
Speaker A:She said, oh, we learned how to open Microsoft, send an email and copy somebody into an email.
Speaker A:And I looked at her and I said, well, it's lucky that you didn't miss out on the last 15 years of institutionalized learning, isn't it?
Speaker A:Because you wouldn't have been able to answer an email.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:But one thing she has learned is emotional regulation, which they do not teach in school.
Speaker A:And in actual fact, it's.
Speaker A:It's almost discouraged, almost.
Speaker A:And as you were talking there about neurodivergence and.
Speaker A:And talking about regulation and emotional regulation as being so key, it reminded me of the work that I do because I actually work with clients who have autism and ADHD who have these kind of brains working together.
Speaker A:And one of the things I offer is screening.
Speaker A:I do ADHD screening and it's not a diagnosis, but it's a very good test.
Speaker A:It's called the Connors something or other.
Speaker A:And it's like the gold standard.
Speaker A:They use it in a lot of the rest of the world.
Speaker A:We'd barely use it in the uk, I have no idea why, but we use, like, much weirder, much, much vaguer stuff.
Speaker A:But anyway, as part of this test, you get screened for the five elements of adhd.
Speaker A:And I always say to my clients, they often come to me with a diagnosis, and I say, okay, could you let me know, like, how you scored on these different five elements?
Speaker A:They're like five elements.
Speaker A:And I'm like, you know, like the five elements of adhd.
Speaker A:And I kind of reel them off and they're like, I mean, time management.
Speaker A:And I'm like, yeah, but that's like executive functioning.
Speaker A:That's just the first one.
Speaker A:And then I said, what about, for example, the.
Speaker A:The final two elements of adhd, which is.
Speaker A:Which are emotional dysregulation and negative self concept.
Speaker A:And they look at me like, no one told me that this was a thing, that this was actually an ADHD thing.
Speaker A:And it's.
Speaker A:And it.
Speaker A:It just drives me mad because people think that ADHD is, you know, being able to focus or being fidgety or, you know, being crap at going places on time, but actually, two fifths of the diagnosis are about how you feel about yourself and how you can hold those emotions.
Speaker A:And one thing that home education allows us to do, as you say in real time, is help our children navigate through those dysregulating moments.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:And I think, as you say in.
Speaker B:In real time as well, I think that's what's so important.
Speaker B:Because what.
Speaker B:What I get to see is why my child's maybe having a meltdown, or when you get your child back from school and they're having a meltdown, you have no idea where.
Speaker B:Where that.
Speaker B:You've got a whole journey to go through to unpack, where that's actually come from, what actually is happening.
Speaker B:Because when they're having a meltdown because you've maybe, I don't know, cut their apple up the wrong way or done whatever, and, you know, it's not about that.
Speaker B:But how do you find out what it is about?
Speaker B:How do you get to that?
Speaker B:Whereas, as I say, I'm not.
Speaker B:I'm not with my children 24 7, but I have much more of an idea of where that's come from.
Speaker B:My.
Speaker B:My middle daughter, my.
Speaker B:My husband laughs about it because I'm so in tune with her that I can.
Speaker B:I can catch her meltdowns before they happen.
Speaker B:I already know what she needs before she knows what she needs.
Speaker B:And that has saved my life.
Speaker B:Because she.
Speaker B:She was in school, she would be.
Speaker B:Well, yeah, I mean, she would Be, I don't know, diagnosed with a whole host of things and, and labeled with, with all sorts of things and she would have been causing a whole multitude of, of issues.
Speaker B:And these days she's, she's quite calm.
Speaker B:But that's because I know, I know what she needs and I'm teaching her what she needs.
Speaker B:And she's, she's now from.
Speaker B:She was very non verbal with anything to do.
Speaker B:Not non verbal, she could speak but anytime she was disregulated she was completely non verbal and she still at, you know, she, she threw tantrums like a 2 year old when she was like 6, 7.
Speaker B:And it was, you know, when you've got, and she's quite, she's very tall.
Speaker B:So you know you've got a six or seven year old kicking and punching you and things, it's, it's quite difficult.
Speaker B:And when you're out and about and you're trying to manhandle them and things, it was really challenging.
Speaker B:But she's now, we've got such a, an understanding that she's now starting to be able to verbalize to me what she needs in those moments.
Speaker B:And for me that's my biggest achievement as a parent because for.
Speaker B:To be able to do that as an adult is hard to verbalize what you need or what's going on for you particularly because none of us are taught how to do that.
Speaker B:And, and these, these are the things that, it frustrates me that these are the things that should be being taught.
Speaker B:Without those it's just, just you can go and be the top in your field of whatever, you know, chosen profession, but if you can't regulate yourself and you can't, you know, that's why you see people having breakdowns who are, you know, really, really successful in the eyes of society, but they have breakdowns because they still don't know how to manage their emotions, to verbalize their needs, to put boundaries in to.
Speaker B:And I just think, wow, how are we still not seeing that this is an issue, that this is an important part of, of life.
Speaker B:So yeah, and, and like you say that, that people don't understand that that part of the diagnosis, a huge part of it is that understanding of self, that emotional regulation, it's, it's not something that comes easily when particularly have an ADHD brain and learning ways to do that, not just learning ways to do that, but also having a life that allows you to do that because we can know what those things are.
Speaker B:But without having the opportunity, you know, in school you can't even necessarily go to the toilet.
Speaker B:When you need to go to the toilet, you have to do it at certain times to train yourself to do, to go to the toilet at certain times.
Speaker B:And, and even just that.
Speaker B:So just that I have, you know, and I know a lot of, a lot of neurodivergent people have an issue with using public toilets and with going to the toilet in general.
Speaker B:I will put it off and put it off and put it off.
Speaker B:And it's another thing that blows my husband's mind because I'll be absolutely, absolutely desperate and then I'll get distracted doing something and I won't go for like to the toilet for like another couple of hours or something.
Speaker B:And, and he.
Speaker B:This blows his mind.
Speaker B:And so to have this expectation to do it at a certain time within a, a certain framework that.
Speaker B:That was already putting a pressure on, on a child.
Speaker B:And there are so many situations like that within a school environment.
Speaker B:And I appreciate that they have to have those rules in place when you are managing huge numbers of children.
Speaker B:And, you know, there has to be an element of that.
Speaker B:But that's, that's not what I want for my children.
Speaker B:I don't want them to, you know, people say, oh, you've got to learn that.
Speaker B:Because then when you go into the work environment and things, it's like, what the most jobs I've had, I could go to the loo and I wanted to go to the loo.
Speaker B:Like, you know, I appreciate as a teacher, you can't.
Speaker B:My mum had to let you know.
Speaker B:My mum used to go on about that as a teacher, she was like, you have to learn to have a really strong bladder because you can't leave the classroom.
Speaker B:You know, maybe as a doctor or a nurse, if you're in the middle of doing something, you know, they can't just go.
Speaker B:There are certain professions where, yeah, maybe you can't, you know, if you're performing on stage, you can't run off and go to the toilet.
Speaker B:Yes, but in most jobs or most situations you can go to the toilet when you want to go to the toilet.
Speaker A:It's interesting as well, isn't it, that when we as adults, when people tell us about jobs that they do, you know, like, for example, you know, the famous.
Speaker A:There was a documentary about if you work for Amazon or whoever it was and you have to pick certain things off the shelves in a certain time limit.
Speaker A:And I know that I had a job where I was doing telesales or something and we couldn't go to the toilet when we wanted, we were only allowed certain specific.
Speaker A:You can only take like three minutes every four hours or whatever ridiculous thing it was.
Speaker A:And I would, even back in the day, this was in the like noughties.
Speaker A:I would tell my friends and they'd be like, that's crazy.
Speaker A:Like that, you know, you should be allowed to go to the toilet when you want.
Speaker A:And you know, people watch documentaries about, about jobs that are really make you do things on at certain times.
Speaker A:And we, and we're up in arms about it with our children in school, we're just like, yeah, no, this is good preparation for life.
Speaker A:And yet what.
Speaker A:It's a life we don't actually want to live and we don't like it when other people live it.
Speaker A:It's crazy.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker A:It's this weird kind of universe where it's okay for our little children, little people, but not for big people.
Speaker B:And you know, the scary thing is the amount of people who said to me that experiencing bullying in school sets you up for life.
Speaker B:Your children need to experience that.
Speaker B:And that scares the life out of me because no amount I was bullied all through school and I still now as an adult, that the resilience I've built up has been, despite that, not because of it.
Speaker B:I don't have a resilience to, you know, I wouldn't put up with bullying now, but because I've learned to put boundaries in and I've learnt myself worth.
Speaker B:But that's only been in the last few years.
Speaker B:I, I then did experience bullying within the workplace as an adult.
Speaker B:I had.
Speaker B:That still had the same effect on me as it did as a child.
Speaker B:The, the thought that that's like, I don't know, saying that, you know, if you allow yourself to be hit by a car, you'll build up resilience so that then when you're hit by a car again, it won't feel as painful.
Speaker B:I mean, it's ridiculous.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:No one should experience bullying, full stop, end of sentence.
Speaker B:The thought that being in an environment where your needs aren't met and you're potentially bullied or you're overlooked and things builds up resilience.
Speaker A:No, I think that that argument that you hear is the most unpleasant one and it's also one of the most common.
Speaker A:And I always say, luckily I'm able to like, say, say this as a therapist, I feel like I've got like some, some like actual qualifications to say this.
Speaker A:But I always say, like, if you're bullied at school, you don't grow up resilient.
Speaker A:You grow.
Speaker A:You grow up traumatized.
Speaker A:That's what happens.
Speaker A:You don't gain anything.
Speaker A:It's just that you have stuff that you need to work through, usually at a very expensive hourly rate with somebody when you're like 40 years old.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:Which is good for me.
Speaker A:But, you know.
Speaker A:Anyway, so before we finish, I just, I just want to ask you very quickly, what would be the single biggest piece of advice you would give to a neurodivergent parent home?
Speaker A:Educating neurodivergent child children.
Speaker B:Be kind to yourself and take your time.
Speaker B:The biggest thing is, is there's no, there's no perfect.
Speaker B:And just try everything out and keep revising it.
Speaker B:Because that, that's been the thing for me is that, you know, what's working right now might not work in a month's time, a year's time, three years time.
Speaker B:We might be doing something completely different and go with it and don't put pressure on yourself.
Speaker B:Create a little bit of structure.
Speaker B:I do think that that is beneficial for everybody, but what that looks like for you is completely personal to you.
Speaker B:And if that's getting up at midday and going to bed at midnight for your family and that works, then brilliant.
Speaker B:If it's getting up at five in the morning and going to bed early, whatever.
Speaker B:But get yourself some structure.
Speaker B:But structure that allows you to do what you want to throw out the window when you need to, to have those days when you just need to throw your arms up in the air and all just lie in a dark room.
Speaker B:That's okay.
Speaker B:And shut out the noise as, as.
Speaker A:Your cat, as your cat meows in that very moment.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:As I'm trying to do right now, shut out the noise.
Speaker B:You know, allow people to, to, to give you advice and, and find your people.
Speaker B:Find your people.
Speaker B:Because having that village around you, having those people that get it.
Speaker B:You know, I've.
Speaker B:The friends of mine who are also neurodivergent who also have neurodivergent children.
Speaker B:They're the ones, they're the ones I gravitate towards.
Speaker B:They're the ones that keep me sane.
Speaker B:You know, having.
Speaker B:Finding the people who.
Speaker B:And you will find them.
Speaker B:And you may have to go to several groups, you may have to try lots of different things out, but keep trying and you will find those people and you will find.
Speaker B:And it doesn't have to be hundreds of people.
Speaker B:It can be one person, one person for your child or one person for you.
Speaker B:That, that, that brings that connection gets it.
Speaker B:And, and, and they they will be there.
Speaker B:And just, yeah, just, just trust in yourself.
Speaker B:You, you are the expert in your child, and you are the expert in you.
Speaker B:And just remember that because we are frequently told that everyone, you know, society knows best about what our children need.
Speaker B:And no one can be more of an expert on your child than you.
Speaker B:So trust in yourself and keep advocating for your child.
Speaker A:Lovely.
Speaker A:Good advice.
Speaker A:I love that.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Emily, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today.
Speaker A:It's been really a pleasure to have you on.
Speaker A:Thank you so much.
Speaker B:Enjoyed it.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker A:Thank you so much for joining us for today's Home Education Matters podcast.
Speaker A:See you at the next one.
Speaker A:Have a lovely day.
